Talk:Winchester Mystery House

Improving the page

I am in the process of overhauling this page as I have found citation links that are broken, the citation does not say what is said on the page, or the citations were from unreliable sources. Dates have been found to be incorrect and information false according to reliable sources. I have also found some new information which will be added. I hope to be finished by the end of August. I look forward to feedback at that time.Hippopotenuse72 (talk) 19:13, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this! There are still a lot of citations that are needed for this article if anyone wants to help. This page still needs quite a bit of cleanup and citations. MMiller324 (talk) 01:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

What an interesting rewrite...but more work than I anticipated. I have published and look forward to seeing people make it better by correcting my grammar etc. My next project is to rewrite Sarah Winchester's page. Hopefully it won't take me as long. Hippopotenuse72 (talk) 03:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Edit war

User Historybuff 5674 is reverting well-sourced edits and replacing them with a copy and paste of this website I am not sure how to request an admin. Please help. Thank you Hippopotenuse72 (talk) 00:30, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I have blocked that editor for 72 hours. Let me know if the disruption resumes, and I will pageblock them from this article. Cullen328 (talk) 00:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!! Hippopotenuse72 (talk) 01:15, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Number 13

There are many modern references to Winchester's apparent love of the number thirteen. The chandeliers hold thirteen candles, there are thirteen bathrooms, thirteen windows, thirteen ceiling panels, and thirteen coat hooks in the home. However these items were added to the home after her death and the first mention of her apparent love of thirteen was recorded in 1929, seven years after her death.

That's just not believable. There's only 13 windows in this huge house? Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 07:49, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Thirteen in one room. The owners of the home are cherry-picking in order to find hits to the number 13. Sgerbic (talk) 20:50, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

But is says thirteen in the house. Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 06:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Tour guides have described feelings of being watched I had to laugh when I read this. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:41, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

HAHA - That is funny. About the windows - obviously there are not only 13 windows in the entire house, but in some rooms. The rooms that the tour guides point out as having 13 windows, which of course means they have 13 windows. Someone could take a whack at improving that bit if they wanted to. Words can be funny things. Sgerbic (talk) 17:26, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

If there is an easily accessible source that clarifies the individual room window count vs. total house window count I would fix it. Found 'em and fixed it. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Official Source Updates

Hi All! I will be making edits to this page due to some incorrect & inaccurate information. This page is the "Winchester Mystery House" page which should only be touching on the house as an official historic landmark in the state of California. I am an employee at The Winchester Mystery House and many of the recent edits were made using one of the only biographies written about Sarah Winchester. Many of these sections that have been added would be better fitted for the Sarah Winchester page. The edits and the biography do not include information from our archives and discoveries the Winchester Mystery House staff has found over the 100 years of operation. The author did not interview anyone affiliated with the house and many of the edits to this page are opinions.

For over 100 years, the Winchester Mystery House has been sharing Sarah's life story, the odd design features of the home and the rumors, legend and lore that plagued her during her lifetime.  We are very respectful of Sarah and her home, and take great pride in what we do.  We invest millions of dollars and countless hours of labor to upkeep and restore her home and are an official city, state and national historic landmark.  We employ an Historian on the estate who aids our tour department in creating and updating our tours when new information emerges within the home or Sarah's story.

Any claims of the paranormal that have been documented for the last 100 years by visitors, paranormal investigators, mediums, psychics and caretakers of the estate are presented as claims, not fact.

The fact is that stories of seances and spiritualism appeared in newspapers during Sarah's lifetime.  No personal correspondence or articles have been found from Sarah denying or confirming her beliefs or these rumors.

Evidence of the life after death, the paranormal or supernatural has not and can not be proven nor disproven. We ask guests, fans and readers to visit the estate and come to their own conclusions about why Sarah built the house the way she did. Ameliar029 (talk) 19:29, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

This page has no single author, it's been written by many Wikipedia volunteer editors over the past 19 years. As an employee of the house your talk page input on inaccuracies and omissions is in the article is welcomed, but Wikipedia conflict of interest guidelines would discourage your from editing the article directly, and particularly adding content in a promotional tone. I've left a note on your talk page regarding the conflict of interest policy.

Wikipedia generally doesn't take a "can not be proven nor disproven" middle ground on a question such as whether ghosts exist, per WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, although ghostly stories can be presented in context in an article such as this one. --Belbury (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Belbury! Thank you for your guidance. Our primary concern is the phrase "It is sometimes claimed to be one of the “most haunted places in the world”, however there is no evidence to support this belief. Much of the lore regarding the Winchester House and its owner is fanciful, unverified, and often proven false." - as you mentioned wikipedia does not generally take a proven or disproving stance but this line remains unchallenged by you and other contributors. 100s of articles have been written over the years listing Winchester Mystery House as one of the most haunted places in the world - would it be best to site these articles in order to keep it fair? Thank you! Ameliar029 (talk) 20:50, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

As Belbury mentioned, Wikipedia can't give credibility to the supernatural per WP:FRINGE. Claims of the house being "most haunted in the world" etc. are WP:SENSATIONAL and are not given WP:UNDUE weight. The lead section summarizes what has been cited in the article body, and accurately identifies various legends, lore, and hyperbolic claims as factually untrue or unsubstantiated. Also, please keep WP:COI on mind. “we ask guests, fans and readers to visit the estate and come to their own conclusions about why Sarah built the house the way she did”…Also see WP:NOTADVERTISING. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi @LuckyLouie! As stated in my previous post earlier, this page should only be touching on the house as an official historic landmark in the state of California as it has in the past. The sections you are referring to in the article are cited by one of the only Sarah Winchester biographies that has been written in which the biographer did not include information from our archives and discoveries the Winchester Mystery House staff has found over the 100 years of operation. To comply with the WP:FRINGE I suggest we remove any mentions of the paranormal claims from the article that cannot be proved nor disproved. Thoughts? Thanks! Ameliar029 (talk) 23:33, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The way WP:FRINGE policy works is that we give the most weight to independent expert opinion on a topic. In the case of topics that feature marginalized viewpoints, we lean towards the mainstream. And mainstream scientific consensus rejects explanations that embrace the paranormal, supernatural, ghosts, demons, etc. So in this case, we have Joe Nickell, Mary Jo Ignoffo, Brian Dunning, Katie Dowd, Colin Dickey, etc. writing in line with that scientific consensus, and also as experts who are (importantly) independent of monetary incentive to promote mystery, drama, superstition, hype, etc. These experts analysis and criticism of the various claims made about the house are quite relevant. And since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it doesn't remove well-sourced criticism of a subject just because it might be bad for the subject's business. However I do agree that "Legend & lore" was an improvement as a section title. Thanks. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

"Evidence of the life after death, the paranormal or supernatural has not and can not be proven nor disproven." Per Fringe it does not work this way. Also, evidence of smurfs can't be proven or disproven by your same logic. I hope we can both agree that to state that these same statements are equal (smurfs might or might not exist) is a silly statement. Let's just get this clear right off the bat Ameliar029 no serious Wikipedian is going to allow this false equivalent to exist on this page. Sgerbic (talk) 23:46, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Sgerbic - In my last comment I suggested we remove all mentions of paranormal claims off of this article to keep it solely historical in regards to complying with Fringe. Thoughts? Thanks! Ameliar029 (talk) 23:53, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that will work Ameliar as the researchers are writing ABOUT the paranormal claims and responding to them. The researchers are the ones with the notability, not the people making the paranormal claims. There would be no context to what the researchers have said if we remove the claims. Further, we don't allow Wikipedians to do original research and contact the house to write the page. That is NOT how Wikipedia works. To add in that it is a haunted house is promotional, the statement is inferring that haunting and ghosts are real, and the Winchester House is one of the "most haunted" like there is some kind of competition that can be evaluated. How could that be evaluated if there is no evidence showing that ghosts exist? We do allow opinions from scholars and researchers that are considered notable for those skills. The opinions are attributed to the source it comes from per Wikipedia policies. I would be willing to allow citations of those 100s of articles that have been written about the House being one of the most haunted places in the world as soon as we have real evidence of hauntings and ghosts within the consistence of science. At the moment, not seeing that evidence anywhere but at Joe's blog on ghosties sites and other websites that are clearly aimed at getting clicks and people to visit. I hope you understand Ameliar029, your statements here on talk seem to be aimed at protecting revenue and not just the history. You say that the staff has found a lot and it's in the archives, that won't do us any good until a researcher has evaluated those archives and written about them. We can't take your word for it, we don't use primary sources in this case. You said in your first statement that there is "no personal correspondence or articles have been found from Sarah denying or confirming her beliefs or these rumors." If there is none, then that is that. She didn't deny being a reptilian did she? Well, should be include that in the article and say she didn't denying being a reptilian? Sgerbic (talk) 00:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not understanding how you can say that you all are respectful of the House (with jump scares and a "terrifying journey thought the worlds most haunted home") and only want to protect the history. I've been on the tour many times and it's clearly paranormal focused. It has gotten a lot better the last few years, but the "some people say ..." is still there. But with a straight face (well I can't see your face) you are trying to tell us that the paranormal isn't a focus when every Halloween there is a "Halloween Haunt" and you allow people like James Van Praagh there to do $250 psychic events?[1]. I see a new tour has just been added 'Walk with spirits" and "Unhinged: Nightshades curse" - "13 select nights". Come on now. Sgerbic (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I tagged the "most haunted" section as "vague."

"It is sometimes claimed to be one of the “most haunted places in the world”, but there is no evidence to support this belief. Much of the lore regarding the Winchester House and its owner is fanciful, unverified, and often provably false."

Calling something a "most haunted place" could either mean it's literally haunted, or that there's enough folklore surrounding it to be culturally significant. If it's the latter, the Winchester House probably meets that criterion. If it's the former, then the scientific stance on that should be so obvious I'm not sure it bears repeating unless a specific claim is being made (e.g., that organ music can be heard in the house). It also implies that these claims were worth serious consideration by researchers, something that definitely would require a citation.

It's also just really vague. "Much of the lore?" How much and what counts as "lore?"

This is kind of trivial, I know, but it just struck me as odd and kind of humorous to be reminded that ghosts aren't real in an encyclopedia article about a house. 2603:7081:1603:A300:5D2A:5E39:2A96:6A62 (talk) 22:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:LEAD and then WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, then see Winchester_Mystery_House#Hauntings citation numbers 10,17, 27 and 28. - LuckyLouie (talk) 22:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)