Talk:Otto von Habsburg

Lothringen?

Just wondering why Austrian authorities refer to him as "Otto Habsburg-Lothringen"? Where did they get the Lothringen part from? --Canuckguy (talk) 00:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Otto, in the direct male-line, is a descendant of Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor who belonged to the House of Lorraine and was the Duke of Lorraine as Francis III Stephen. The House of Lorraine itself was the House of Vaudémont, but "Lorraine" supplanted that in use. He married Maria Theresa of Austria, the heiress of the House of Habsburg, and their children were the first of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, although just calling them "Habsburg" is more common. "Lothringen" is the German form of "Lorraine". Currently, all other lines of the House of Lorraine other than the House of Habsburg-Lorraine are extinct. Hope this helps. Charles 00:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The House of Maria Theresia is called the House of Habsburg from an early possession, or better, the House of Austria from its major German possession (being Upper Austria, Lower Austria and Vienna of today). The House of Francis III was the House of Lorraine, though he himself abdicated and became grandduke of Tuscany. The inheritants of both were, however, called Austria again, since this was also their major hereditive possession (while they did not possess Lorraine and not counting the kingdoms as they had a somewhat special status). In 1804 the Emperor Francis II proclaimed that he took an additional title of Emperor of Austria "being the name of his family" to equalize his inherited lands to Russia and France. So, the state of Austria got its name from the family (and the family itself from Upper and Lower Austria), and Otto of Austria is actually the correct name. A name however that the Austrian republican authorities disliked (whereas, just to mention, Francis of Bavaria has not a single problem to use a passport that styles him just this way, even though his family takes their name from the state unlike, as I mentioned, the Austrian), so they made a mixture of Lorraine and the genealogically incorrect, though, even hundreds of years after the actual end of the dynasty, still popular name of Habsburg, and calls him Habsburg-Lothringen. His name as German citizen is "von Habsburg", since he is known that way and the Germans have no problems with the nobility marker "von". --84.154.52.60 (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The worst thing about the article is that the "After World War II" section springs the name Lothringen upon us with no explanation of where it came from. I'm not qualified to say whether the above explanations are correct, but a correct explanation should definitely be added. 2601:281:CC80:5AE0:D92E:39F3:1822:F3DE (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

But it is not rational to say that because the Germans have no problem with allowing a title to become part of the name that it is alright to use it in Austria. The Austrians don't just dislike the name. It is written into Constitional Law that it MAY NOT be used. Otto swore an oath of loyalty to the Austrian Republic in the 1960s, just like any other citizen, and was awarded and Austrian passport as Dr. Otto Habsburg-Lothringen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.166.42.191 (talk) 16:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Otto was not stateless, he had unbroken Hungarian citizenship

Horthy did not deprived the citizenship of Otto. Communist of Hungary forget to deprive it, so he remained Hungarian citizen.--Draguler (talk) 15:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

But they refused to issue a passport, and that must be seen as depriving/denying the existence of the citizenship?

I doubt that the Communists even saw their own state as having anything to do with the previous imperial domains, except the geographical domains them self. So I don't think they wanted to deprive a Hungarian citizen of him, because then they would accept him any rights from the beginning, and I think they denied that. In fact no state (except Monaco, Malta and Spain, and definitely not anything domestic there, only a passport for travel) admitted him any rights what so ever until he got German citizenship (denouncing any claims).

• So I think the comment "Communist of Hungary forget to deprive it, so he remained Hungarian citizen" is actually invalid.

--Zzalpha (talk) 13:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Otto Habsburg should be described as a German politician, not mainly a pretender

I think the article about Otto Habsburg should focus on the important issue (him a German CDU politician) and the as a notice the main failure, him as a pretender.

• I think the German citizen and CDU politician Otto Habsburg was doing a political successful impact enough for a nice Wikipedia article.

* I think this article should describe his efforts and its topics as an appreciated politician. 
* Otto Habsburg as a politician has a firm root on the official world (the German state BRD and the EU acknowledge his work and status)

• While the actions as a pretender was a complete failure, the throne he pretended is gone since 100 years and its domains shattered, no possible success ever. In a declaration dated 31 May 1961, Otto renounced all claims to the Austrian throne and proclaimed himself "a loyal citizen of the republic", "for purely practical reasons".

* His position as a pretender has no official status, is firmly denied by all states in the world all times since the Austrian empires dissolution. 
* He himself have renounced all claims (and the claims are just private claims)
* Wikipedia should not drive any political private pamphlets in any other form than as those that are officially backed by a state (see below), this especially by prince pretenders and Nobility titles

I think this article need a face lift!

Prince Pretenders and Nobility titles

Prince and Nobility titles are only connected to the recognition of a government of a recognized state, else they do not exist and as such should not exist in Wikipedia as a pretender. A pretender is nothing but a personal claim, but without a political backing it is without content and does not exist, outside private affairs (not Wikipedias domain).

• In Great Britain the house of lords and the royal family regulates and maintain it by the parliaments will.
• In Belgium the law legitimize the king and the princes of the royal family and do recognize the existence of a Nobility, but a Nobility of no formal extra rights.
• In Sweden the royal family and its princes are regulated in law and the House of Nobility (Sweden) since 1866 is a private organisations and has no official recognition.
• In Finland House of Nobility (Finland) 1920 are private organisations and has no official recognition.
• In Denmark the royal family and its princes are regulated in law and the Danish nobility since 1849 is a private organisation and has no official recognition.
• In Norway the royal family and its princes are regulated in law and the Aristocracy of Norway is abolished since 1814.
• In Germany and Austria monarchy was abolished after WWI and the emperor, its princes and its German nobility abdicated collectively by decision of the emperor and the states of their realm, denying the titles and made them illegal. No governmental body has ever since made them valid, so they can't exist (as anything but private pretenders with no backing, but the weekly press (with no official status)).

Wikipedia should not document royalty, princes and nobility without official backing

Not as anything but being private pretenders. And as such should not put real official status efforts like Otto Habsburg as a German CDU politician in shadow. Only as a minor sub-topic.

The description in Wikipedia of James Francis Edward Stuart is correct and the same should be for German pretenders

• I think it should be a raw model for this topic?

Caroline, Princess of Hanover can't possibly be a Princess of Hanover because there are none, merely a pretender and she isn’t (even if she is a backer), but her husband. And his relatives renounced the title becoming dukes of Duchy of Brunswick, and denounced by the British royal family by the WWI. She is Caroline Welf and could possibly be Princess of Monaco if Albert II, Prince of Monaco recognize her as such. That her husband is a pretender could be noted, but is not the front topic. She can't be named/titled "Princess of Hanover"/"the pretender" in the article, because it is not an official status of Germany and a thing Wikipedia should deal with that way. The article should be rewritten, it is not correct.

Otto Habsburg was a German politician and before that Crown prince of Austria until it was dissolved.

This is a politically too sensitive topic to be ignored. Wikipedia should not take political stands in favour of any, just be an observer.

Wikipedia needs a much stronger policy here!

--Zzalpha (talk) 15:39, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree that his political career should be promoted more strongly in the article. After all, it is what he worked for and what he actually accomplished. However, I know little about Nobility and what people do and do not do with it, so I do not hold an opinion on your other propositions. 2A02:8071:B6A8:1B00:4812:67C:D25:3F4F (talk) 10:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Citizenship

The following sentence disagrees with the infobox and is also easily misunderstood:

"At the time of his death, he was a citizen of Germany, Austria, Hungary, and Croatia,[citation needed] having earlier been stateless de jure and de facto, and possessed passports of the Order of Malta and Spain."

When did he possess passports from Hungary and Spain? 2A02:8071:B6A8:1B00:4812:67C:D25:3F4F (talk) 10:08, 30 March 2022 (UTC)