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edit not supported by reliable sources

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There's no reliable sources for vi written by "Mary Horton" (aside from some primary sources which aren't usable here) TEDickey (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is your concern that Mark / Mary Ann Horton didn't work on vi, or that Mary Ann Horton isn't the same person as Mark Horton? Both of these seem to be supported by https://www.usenix.org/system/files/login/articles/spring20_09_horton.pdf. Dan Bloch (talk) 00:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The source you're citing is written long after the events occurred, and isn't really relevant to the ~40-year-old sources which document the work. There's nothing that I could use, at any rate TEDickey (talk) 01:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The question isn't what source was cited, it's what sources exist. New reliable sources consistently refer to her as Mary Ann Horton, even when describing her work done under an earlier name. This is exactly what WP:NAMECHANGES asks us to consider. You can't cherry-pick to say this is the only article about her work on vi, therefore we can ignore how she's referred to in newer sources describing all the rest of her work in that same period. Msnicki (talk) 13:25, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender_identity Irrelevant. Wikipedia style, as well as basic respect for trans people, dictates otherwise. Her name is, as a point of fact, Mary Horton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.197.195 (talk) 01:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. WP:Gender identity strongly supports using Ms. Horton's preferred name. It states, "When a subject changes names as part of coming out as transgender, it is often impossible to continue to use that person's former name without misgendering them and thus causing harm as discussed in #Self-identification and #Transphobia.'" Msnicki (talk) 13:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I support treating Ms. Horton with basic human respect and referring to her by her preferred name. To do otherwise seems unnecessarily rude. Msnicki (talk) 01:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
However, it's debatable whether that follows the guideline in WP:NAMECHANGES. For this topic, almost all sources (except for the previously mentioned primary sources), use the older name. By the way, your comments about rude are off-topic, there's no need to insert promotional comments. TEDickey (talk) 09:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that it's disrespectful and mean-spirited to refer to a transperson by their old name. When people do that, it's often motivated by animus. Whether that was the motivation in this case is irrelevant; this is what the behavior communicates and we shouldn't do it. Moreover, I find the guidelines you cite to support using her current name. Exactly one source is cited that was written before the name change. But new sources, e.g., in The Daily Beast, clearly refer to Ms. Horton by her current name. From WP:NAMECHANGES, "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." This should not be a hard choice. We should be respectful and refer to her by her preferred name. Msnicki (talk) 12:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's policy on this is "Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis", which doesn't help much but is a reminder that there's no general agreement. (WP:NAMECHANGES is only about article titles. WP:Gender identity is an essay and not policy.) Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity, which is also not policy but which is a draft policy and could some day become policy, suggests something like "Mary Ann Horton, then known as Mark Horton". Could everyone live with that? Dan Bloch (talk) 14:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No. This is only an incidental mention of Ms. Horton. We're reporting her contribution and that's all that's important. There is no reason to call attention to completely irrelevant personal details of her name and gender change years later in an article about vi. This has nothing to do with vi. We have a WP:BLP about her titled Mary Ann Horton that explains things for anyone who's confused in the first seven words. For me, the name chosen as the title of the WP:BLP pretty much settles the matter of whether we should use an individual's current or former name to refer to them here and elsewhere on Wikipedia. If you disagree with that choice, I think the BLP talk page is the place to take your argument, not here. Msnicki (talk) 14:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
At this point there's general agreement that Ms. Horton be identified as such. The issue is whether also mentioning the name used in the sources of the time is of value to readers. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no value to that. Most people are aware that people change their names for a variety of reasons and can follow the hyperlink if they are curious to know more about Ms. Horton's reason. The source being cited is what it is as a reliable source for the claim being made. Msnicki (talk) 18:16, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I used terms like [Latin for [transcription of numeral 6 is] six] in other programs [app naming / code commments], eg when you are looking for namings like this, you might be not that unreasonable [I am a loser, but I thought that maybe long term, well, ye know] [multilingual wiktionary?] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0A:A540:BE8:0:ACC6:17F2:88CC:E35A (talk) 23:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 December 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 04:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vi → Vi (text editor) – (and redirect Vi to VI) Even with the second letter lowercase, this is a simple two-letter combination for which there is no primary topic. This subject's long-term significance not at the same height as primary topics Ra, Ur, qi, or pi. Google Search's first results are for the text editor, but this may be inauthentic – Google also jokingly displays Did you mean: EMACS. A Google Scholar search for "vi" -author:vi shows results almost entirely for "vi" as the Roman numeral (capitalized of course). Lastly, this topic doesn't significantly clear Vi (League of Legends) in terms of pageviews. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 17:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes!(but*): I buy it. (To me), (almost always), "VI" and "vi" are just annoying things to write instead of [6 (number)]. Where that is not the case, (in context), "VI" and ".vi" are US or British [Virgin Islands]; v.i. is [verb intransitive]; "Vi" is Vi [Violet (given name)]; and yes "vi" can be [vi (text editor)], but only because I have (rarely) read of it. (Btw, I never heard of vi, and can't recall having heard it spoken.) I think someone looking up "vi", "VI", "Vi", "V.I.", or "v.i." probably is not looking for "6", and is less likely to be looking for [vi (text editor)] than for one of the others. So yes, move [Vi] to [Vi (text editor)], *WITH REDIRECT (so that the existing 7 redirects to [Vi] get automatically corrected). AFTER the corrections happen, you could change [Vi] to redirect to [VI] (the existing disambiguation page), -OR- move [VI] to [Vi] (is there a norm? A quick look finds CA, CI, DU, EM, FM, IL, LB, MD, NC, ND, NY, PC, PR, and WA; but Bo, Do, Nm, Oe, Or, Oz, and Pa. (NJ, Nj, NZ, and Nz redirect to articles.) -A876 (talk) 21:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Without a way to differentiate on the lower-case first letter, it's probably true that there's no primary topic for vi/Vi, though an argument could be made on the basis of long-term significance. However, it's also true that the text editor is by far the most common destination from VI. Wikinav shows it having twice the outgoing pageviews of Vodaphone Idea and four times the outgoing pageviews of Vi (League of Legends). And this in spite of lower-case vi also having its own page. If vi is merged into the DAB, the DAB should lead off with a "VI most commonly refers to:" section a la Mercury. I'm happy to add this section, but if there are any objections now is the time to raise them, not later. Dan Bloch (talk) 18:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vi Modes

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"...including allowing the cursor keys to work in input mode" could be referring to Insert mode, as mentioned earlier in the article under "Interface". I haven't heard Insert mode referred to as Input mode before in any documentation or articles about Vi, so I'm skeptical as to its usage here. Also, pressing Escape while in Insert mode does not enter Command mode as the article suggests; commands are entered by prefixing them with a colon. Finally, there is a third mode that isn't mentioned at all, Replace mode, which is entered by pressing capital R while in Normal mode. TechPersonYT (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rivalry with Emacs

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Is is worth mentioning the Editor War? Quoting that article, “the rivalry [between users of the Emacs and vi] has become an enduring part of hacker culture and the free software community.” --2001:16B8:ABA2:6E00:10F6:5BAB:6090:730A (talk) 11:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Influences from contemporary MIT editors

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According to an email from Dan Halbert, vi was influenced by Emacs: "I had used Emacs at MIT as an undergraduate. Bill would sometimes ask me, "how do they do that in Emacs", or ITS, and then riff on a feature and put it into vi or whatever." "A lot of the vi visual-mode commands were inspired by emacs, like forward/back words, sentences/statements, paragraphs/functions. I specifically remember explaining the hierarchy of ctrl-f, meta-f, ctrl-meta-f, etc., and then Bill went off and put in '{' and '}' and similar commands. And the "yank" commands were named after ctrl-Y and other "yank" commands in emacs." https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2024-October/030931.html

According to an email from Bill Joy, vi was influenced by DOC (also called ZED) and Emacs: "if anything, the open and visual commands were inspired by vaughn pratts "doc" editor (teco macros) from mit, but were actually mostly designed by me, from scratch. i later cribbed additional ideas from doc and from stallman emacs." https://archive.org/details/text-editor-email

Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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