File talk:Fuero3.JPG

I've left two phrases I wasn't confident in translating:

• "que se feciese que se tenga"
• "hayan de gobernar en los pueblos"

Help with either of these would be welcome. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:11, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

User:Error, I see you've now translated the latter as "will govern the peoples". Why are you confident this is not "will govern the towns", the other interpretation I thought it might have? (Not at all a hostile question, just trying to understand what I might have failed to grasp.) -- Jmabel | Talk 04:16, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

I suppose. It seems that the later reinos is equivalent. -- Error 04:28, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also on por fazañas, é por albedrios departidos de los homes, I had rendered this as "arbitrarily and by caprice separately from the people"; you've changed it to "on precedence, and by judgments separated from the people" and ask, "can we use arbitrage?"

I meant precedente, the result of earlier judgments that marks the path for following ones. It's sure present in Common Law. -- Error 04:28, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

1. You are certainly right to change "separately from" to "separated from".
2. We can't use "arbitrage", which actually doesn't mean that something is arbitrary. It means taking advantage of inefficient markets by buying in one more or less simultaneously with selling in another.

   I knew, but I didn't remember a better word. RAE:

   3. m. Costumbre jurídica no escrita.

   4. m. ant. Sentencia del juez árbitro.

   5. m. ant. Libertad de resolución.

1. Still, it is precisely this sense of arbitratiness that the Spanish words fazañas (hazañas) and albedrios suggest here, and I think your translation loses that. "Caprice" may have been too strong, but I don't think I misunderstood this. Would you have any objection to rendering this as "judging arbitrarily, separated from the people"?

Corominas quotes several fueros in Castilian and Portuguese for fazaña:

es a saber que las façañas de Castilla por que deven judgar son aquellas por quel Rey judgó... diciendo o mostrando el que alega la façaña el derecho sobre el quel Rey judgó. (Fuero Viejo de Castilla, Apéndice I).

The other fueros insist that the valid façañas are those given by the king. Maybe the judges were following their own façañas.

-- Error 04:28, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, then, "precedent" is precisely correct, I appear to have misunderstood fazaña to suggest more arbitrariness than it was claiming. Does even albedrios not imply arbitrariness? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:42, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know. It seems that judges were not very limited. -- Error 04:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've red in more documents also the expression "fazañas et albedrios", and it seemed that they were expressing the general jugdment procceedings before the writen law. I would give it the sense as "by no writen laws". Fazañas would mean the actual "precedentes" and "albedrios" surely was the ethimological precedent of "arbitrio". It has to be noted that Arbitrios were also the tax borders places, douanes, situated in the roads until 1968, when they were definitely abolished (I went with my father to hear Mass in the "Arbitrios house" in my town borders) and was also the name of the taxes that were paid to pass the products in such borders.Idiazabal 13:14, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So does anyone feel that "arbitration" would be wrong here? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:58, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Arbitrio is a cognate of albedrío, but plays no role here (Do we have something about arbitrists?) As DRAE says, "3. Costumbre jurídica no escrita." seems the most correct. Arbitration would be the 4th acception, but I think that it is not the meaning here. Arbitration implies two disputing parts and a judge. So "precedent and oral custom"? -- Error 22:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is no word "arbitrists". Do you mean "arbitrators" (also "arbiters", not much difference between the two), or "arbitrageurs", or something distinct from either of these? And I think "precedent and orally transmitted custom" would fit the bill, I'll use that. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:30, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

Arbitristas were officers who proposed to save the economy of Spain by introducing new arbitrios (sales taxes). (Remember that nobles were exempt from direct taxes). They are considered the beginners of Spanish economics. Quevedo ridiculed their proposals. -- Error 00:34, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Almost certainly no English-language word, you are certainly right to start one under the Spanish-language name. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:23, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Policy on transcriptions?

Shall we have a policy on these transcriptions? A category? Move them to WikiSource?

BTW, here's one I did earlier. Chameleon 01:34, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikisource would be fine with me. I try to do this transcription and translation when people enter documents as images, since the content is otherwise unsearchable and (when left in a foreign language) incomprehinsible to most English-speakers. I did something similar at Image:Gestapo_anti-gay_telex.jpg-- Jmabel | Talk 04:27, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)