Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Conventions

Power and Torque units

I have restored the original Power and Torque section; this was changed without consensus by MrsSnoozyTurtle back in 2019. Snoozy is currently using their own change as an excuse for eradicating all mentions of metric hp from all BMW articles, which I cannot accept without a proper discussion. Cheers.  Mr.choppers | ✎  20:17, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Mr.Choppers. Actually it is the other way around. The section above shows that your proposed changes were not supported by consensus. That you have made wording tweaks in the meantime to this version of the section makes it quite strange that you are trying to go back to the unsupported version without warning. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 23:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

You do not get to make a unilateral change to the guideline and then claim a consensus where none exists. If you feel that the use of PS is deeply damaging to Wikipedia and readers would be hopelessly confused by it, then the onus is on you to get a clear consensus to remove it. Multiple editors reverted your unilateral removal of pferdestärke from the guideline. --Sable232 (talk) 01:03, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

MrsSnoozyTurtle, I restored the version as it was before you made a bunch of changes in 2019 (link above), not what I think it ought to be. Also, please read WP:OWN and consider your rigid attitude towards all articles concerning BMW automobiles.  Mr.choppers | ✎  14:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to side-step the whole who change to which version issue (both sides will feel like they're being blamed for evil doings).

The difference between the 2 version boils down to a time reference. One version says that if a car was referred to in PS when it was new then WP should continue to use PS as the primary unit in articles about it. The other version omits the time part. The time part means that period references in PS would dominate the choice of units for WP. Without the time part, current references (typically in current magazine about class cars) dominate.

Now comes the hard part. Magazines about old topics tend to use the old units too. So European classic car magazines continue to use PS - which explains Mr Choppers' position. English classic car mags do a similar thing with hp. This is certainly a strong argument. On the other hand, we could say that these are specialist magazines and WP is for a general readership. But on the third hand we could also say that anybody interested enough to read WP articles about old cars will also be reading those mags. My own take is to use the units for each country according to the current general use by that country - ie metric for most countries and hp for the UK/US.  Stepho  talk  06:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Stepho-wrs. Thank you for your input on this issue. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 22:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

That's the thing, most countries have used and continue to use both metric horsepower and kW - the transition period is not yet over, not even in Germany and certainly not in Japan, Korea, or most of the remainder of the world. UK/US overwhelmingly use imperial hp alone, while Aus/ZA (and NZ?) skipped straight from hp to kW and never bothered with legacy metric units. Let's call these groups of countries "Metric", "Non-Metric", and "SI".

This overlap of units is easily dealt with using conversion templates, which allow for more than one unit to be used when appropriate. That is why they exist. This also eliminates the steady stream of well meant "corrections" to hp outputs. If references say 286PS/210kW then I do not see any danger in including PS (and hp as well to make things super clear). We do not need to use all three units in every mention, but absolutely in tables. Lastly, car data mills such as carfolio.com or automobile-catalog.com always include all three units, and do y'all know why? Because all three units are relevant and in use by enough people across the world to make it worthwhile to include them.

And Stepho-wrs, PS is in no way whatsoever restricted to classic car magazines in Metric countries. To stick to Germany, here is from today's Auto-Bild and from Auto Motor und Sport. I was actually very surprised to see PS used exclusively in every article on combustion engined cars that I clicked on (well, all two of them), I had truly expected kW/PS or maybe PS/kW. Perhaps this is a mark of the coming end of petrol and diesel, with kW being "reserved" for electrics? As for "specialist magazines", weekly news magazine der Spiegel uses PS only when discussing the BMW 750iL. There is clearly no fear that the readership will be confused by an obscure and obsolete unit. In Europe kW is the specialist unit, something one would hear an engineer or maybe an insurance agent use, whereas most regular people stubbornly insist on talking horsepower as evidenced by the links. I am only showing German conditions here as MrsSnoozyTurtle is apparently in charge of all BMW-related articles, so that is where the argument is centered.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:36, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Just came across an edit from yesterday in which a well-meaning IP editor in Bulgaria tried to include the 507PS output of the E60 M5.  Mr.choppers | ✎  04:35, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm slowly being converted (but not quite there yet). I still reject the time part - we should only use units according to what modern readers use - otherwise articles on Roman history would show distances in stadia.

Assuming that modern European readers still prefer PS over kW (ie far more modern references use PS than kW), this would be more like WP:TIES and MOS:UNITS. Ties/units currently divides the world into US, UK and the rest. We would have to further divide the rest into those that prefer PS (Europe and Japan?). So we would have a guideline that says US=hp+imperial, UK=hp+metric, Europe+Japan=PS+metric, rest=metric. This is a little against ties/units but ties/units does allow for industry-wide things like hands for horses - as long as modern references strongly support it.

Note: this is a little like Australia in the 1990s. We were officially metric for a couple of decades and the companies advertised in kW but the magazines stuck to hp. By about 2000 we swapped to kW for everything except the classic car magazines.  Stepho  talk  23:40, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's a mess and I hate having to use three units. South Korea also uses PS and are even stuck using kgm, while from what I can tell all of Latin America uses PS+kW. Please remember that the convention of using "PS" as the abbreviaton for metric hp is in no way the norm. Most countries just write "horsepower" in whatever language they use, and unless they were once colonized by the Brits then they tend to mean metric horsepower. I just clicked on the first Malaysian article I could find, and it uses PS only. I cannot say for sure, but it seems to me that only South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia managed to avoid the legacy metric units (which are still metric, just not SI). I think of the automotive world as non-metric, metric, and SI - the first ones should use hp/kW, the second group kW/PS/hp (excepting pre-1972 cars, when PS ought to lead), while the third group should use kW/hp. Maybe hp ought to be left out for the SI countries, but I feel that most Americans and Brits have zero relationship with kilowatts and I don't think we ought to push them too much.

As for time, I still believe that the Holden 48/215 should lead with hp, and the Borgward Isabella should lead with PS. I don't think we should ever lead with kgm, since this unit is no longer commonly used outside of Japan and South Korea AFAIK. 1972 is a nice (and non-arbitrary) point to begin the change over, although obviously it gets complicated when writing about the VW Beetle for instance. 1978 seems to be the year by which the SI process was officially completed in many countries, so perhaps these seven years can be in a bit of flux.  Mr.choppers | ✎  21:38, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Such large deviations from MOS:UNITS are not justified IMHO. For example, List of tallest pyramids is not written in cubits. Regards, MrsSnoozyTurtle 22:16, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Again, and as shown dozens of times by now, metric horsepower remain in widespread use across the entire world, by specialist and non-specialist sources alike. There is no comparison.  Mr.choppers | ✎  22:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@MrsSnoozyTurtle: Using the units used in reliable sources is precisely what MOS:UNIT tells us to do. You are the one proposing a "deviation". It states we should use "such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic" where they differ from SI units. I already provided a counterargument to your incorrect claim about the pyramids back in the earlier discussion, which I quote: "MOS:UNIT does not say to use the unit used historically/in context. As pointed out above by User:Mr.choppers, we should use the units conventionally used to discuss the topic in reliable sources. I'm no Egyptologist but where I've seen the height of the Great Pyramid written down with any precision it's in metres, not cubits, so it makes sense here to use metres, as do reliable sources. In many cases, especially for older cars as outlined by others above, this will either be PS or hp. A conversion to kW should still be given, but I think it best to lead with the unit which is actually being used." A7V2 (talk) 23:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

The WikiProject automobiles guidelines differs from MOS:UNIT in that they state use metric primary whereas the MOS states use SI primary (except for UK and USA). There is a difference, PS might be metric but it's just another version of horsepower and is not an SI unit. As Stepho-wrs has pointed out it can take decades for magazines and the general public to change to newer units. But Wikipedia if for the here and now and the future, where in the end power will be only in kW, even in the USA. The MOS:UNIT trumps this guideline. Avi8tor (talk) 15:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

You should watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC2-JKO0c2I on horsepower and watts Avi8tor (talk) 16:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@Avi8tor The MOS does not state that. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Unit choice and order states (emphasis mine): "In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units (such as kilograms), non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.) " ("in all other articles" meaning not including non-scientific articles with strong ties to the US or UK). So following reliable sources is certainly more than acceptable. It is not up to us to try to predict the future. A7V2 (talk) 06:39, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

There are so many replies to your statement I'm not following what it is you mean when you say the MOS does not state that. Are you suggesting the MOS does not state "use SI primary (except for the UK and USA"? I take the MOS to mean that SI will be the primary unit and you can add whatever other units you want. Unless the article has strong ties to the UK or USA, in those 2 countries you can have their preferred unit first. Avi8tor (talk) 16:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I directly quoted the MOS. While it is true that the MOS does say that, it is the first half only of the sentence. Read the bolded part again. It is perfectly acceptable, according to the MOS, to use non-SI units where they are conventional in reliable sources discussing whatever it is. There is no inconsistency between the recomendations of this page and the MOS. A7V2 (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree as long as they follow the SI unit. The only SI unit for power is kW. Hands and RPM are also not accepted for use for use with SI units. I think this is a case of a poorly written style guide where some folks think they have an exception to the guidelines. For horses you can have centimetres and then hands. With 95% of the planet's population living in countries that have standardized on SI why would we want to have no SI units first just because a magazine in the UK or elsewhere quotes only horsepower or SP? The MOS is written for a worldwide audience. Would this allow someone to take the same liberties with US and UK articles. They no longer use gallons anywhere in the UK, but the style manual perpetuates the use of gallons? Why? Avi8tor (talk) 12:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to argue about the merits of the MOS here, what is written is what is written. If you want the MOS itself changed this is not the place, but as it is there is no problem using non-SI units first when they are the conventional units. Of course a conversion to kW should always be given at the very least, but is that not already the case already? A7V2 (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

This has been pointed out to Avi8tor on like a dozen occasions by now, he just believes that that sentence ought not to exist. Which, of course, means that pointing to WP:MOS is inappropriate. FWIW, the French public still commonly uses ch (that's metric horsepower) to describe their cars today. Fifty years of officially being SI has not changed this, and it is not for Wikipedia to change it either. Kilowatts is reserved for government or insurance documentation; in France as in most metric countries, horsepower linger on when we discuss cars - in large part because no one aside from engineers does any math with a cars power, so it is irrelevant how it relates to other units. Again, Wikipedia is here to describe the world, not to change it.  Mr.choppers | ✎  18:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

This is not the French Wikipedia and is written for a worldwide English speaking audience. Everyone can pick and choose their sources. MOS does state SI shall be primary! Avi8tor (talk) 11:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Gallery styles

I've noticed there are a variety of different styles of galleries being used across automotive articles and wanted to see if any editors here have a preference when it comes to which should be used, whether for aesthetic, formatting, or accessibility reasons. I personally like to use packed galleries for a lot of the articles I edit as I think it produces the best look, but I know that the traditional layout is still the dominant format. TKOIII (talk) 20:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Personally I think the packed look is awful (sorry); in general I go for the unmodified versions of templates unless there is a really good reason to change it. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  12:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Removal of discriminatory guideline

I'm perplexed as to how nobody has spotted this or identified it as a potential concern.

Under WP:CARNAMES there is an exception to the general model naming policy. The general policy determines a page title by the model name used in what I shall call the country of origin. The exception however allows English speaking countries to suppress the original, foreign name. It applies only to; and thus unfairly disadvantages; manufacturers headquartered in countries that do not speak English. As such, this neatly fits the definition of indirect discrimination.

Further, the subsequent example of naming the Mazda Axela makes an incorrect statement. This vehicle was in fact sold brand new as the Mazda Axela in New Zealand, which is predominantly English speaking (although worthy of note: brand new vehicles in 2024 are sold as the Mazda 3). You can see one "NZ New" Axela for sale here: https://www.trademe.co.nz/4772732303

I suggest removing this exception as I do not see how it benefits anyone except the xenophobic - IE those who refuse to use a model name that wasn't branded in their country. I do not think that Wikipedia is a platform where the rules should differ based solely on what language people speak.

Nga mihi. Crazfulla (talk) 16:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, this is an English Wikipedia. Which means whenever there is ambiguation or conflict between languages then English gets the edge.

The Mazda Axela/Mazda3 in New Zealand is an excellent example. Japan has the weird habit of giving vehicles different names in its local market. These names are practically unknown outside of that market. Most importantly, these names are practically unknown in the English speaking world. Therefore, to use those native market names in the English Wikipedia just makes those names harder for English readers (both native speakers or English as a second language reader).

Also remember that when cars are sold under different names in different markets. there is no totally correct solution - only the least worse answer. Eg, the the US the Mazda Miata is known as the Mazda MX-5 in most of the world. Which do we use? No matter which name we use somebody will be confused. We just aim for the name that helps the most readers (in particular, English Wikipedia must aim to help English readers) and add a redirect link for the other names.

If I understand the NZ import laws correctly, new cars can be privately imported from Japan and then registered as new. These are not cars sold by Mazda NZ but are private imports. Therefore, the name used is not relevant because it is not the name that Mazda NZ used.

Also on the note of this being an English Wikipedia, what on Earth does "Nga mihi" mean? I'm guessing its some Maori term but since the majority of us do not understand Maori, it is unintelligible to us. Not saying that you can't use it but just that we need some clue to what it means.  Stepho  talk  21:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Just reminding that the English-first policy is in line with English Wikipedia policy WP:COMMONNAME.

"it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above." Andra Febrian (talk) 01:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Any Wiki in any language is written primarily for users who speak that language. Obviously that is a bit complicated in English, since it is the lingua franca of the world and is spoken in many many countries. But almost no one outside of Japan calls this car the Axela; one brief instance of one market having used the Axela name doesn't mean everyone else has to be confused by an unfamiliar page title - especially since even the Japanese market cars changed over to Mazda3 for the fourth generation.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Well said Greglocock (talk) 04:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Crazfulla: you shouldn't trust a vendor at trademe over reliable sources. Here is Mazda NZ's website for the Mazda3 from June 2007.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Do concept cars, custom cars, and one-offs belong in certain categories?

Apologies if i'm rehashing something that has already been talked about, but I was wondering whether there is a guideline for whether non production cars such as concepts, one-offs, racecars, and customs belong in categories such as "cars introduced in 19xx", "roadsters", "rear-wheel-drive vehicles" and other such categories or if those are generally reserved for production road cars only. TKOIII (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)