Talk:List of birds of Europe

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Wouldn't birds of Europe be more in line with naming conventions? Tuf-Kat 06:54 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

This is a list of bird families in Europe, not the list of European birds, which I understand refers to species. Or it should anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.240.122.10 (talk) 21:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Definition of Europe

How should Europe be defined for the purposes of this article? The current list includes species from the Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands, but not from Cape Verde. Although the first three island groups belong to Europe politically, this seems an insufficient reason to include them here (e.g., French overseas regions such as Reúnion are not and should not be included). Madeira, the Canary Islands and Cape Verde are geographically closer to Africa than Europe (in the case of Madeira, the difference is marginal). The avifauna of these islands is notably 'Western Palearctic' in character (for Cape Verde less so), but it is not obviously more similar to the avifauna of Europe than to that of, say, Morocco.

eBird defines Europe as:

"Europe (listing region): All of Europe including islands of Iceland, the Faroes, Shetlands, Hebrides, Svalbard, Novaya Zemlya, Jersey, Malta, and Crete. Also included are: Turkish provinces west of the Bosporus and north of the Sea of Marmara, including Istanbul (which spans the Bosporus) and Canakkale (which spans the Dardanelles); the Kazakhstan provinces of West Kazakhstan and Atyrau; and Russian provinces roughly west of the Ural Mountains. Madeira and the Azores are included, but the Canary Islands are not. Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan are not included. Note that this definition of Europe is geopolitical and does not exactly follow the borders (Bosporus, Caspian Sea, Ural River, and Ural Mountains) outlined by sources such as Birds of the Western Palearctic." (Source: https://support.ebird.org/en/support/solutions/articles/48000948655-ebird-glossary)

The map at Europe#Contemporary definition apparently includes the Azores as part of Europe, but does not include Madeira, the Canary Islands, or Cape Verde. In the current article, I would propose to include the Azores and potentially Madeira, but not the other two islands groups. Thoughts?— Preceding unsigned comment added by MathEvo (talk • contribs) 09:45:19 2023-06-27 (UTC)

@MathEvo: The definition of a continent is arbitrary (see the fun changing map at Continent). I'd aim to stick to the map at Europe#Contemporary definition so that Wikipedia is internally consistent, but I can see arguments against that. On that map, the Azores are colored the same as Portugal and other European states, but not specifically stated to be in Europe. I'd be inclined to not include the Azores or Madeira, but that's just based on my impression. I'm interested to see what others think. Whatever we decide should be described in the top of the article so it is clear. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 13:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SchreiberBike: Completely agree that the definition is arbitrary, but that it's good to have one and state it at the top. I would be fine with using the map from Europe#Contemporary definition. It's possible that ornithologically based definitions tend to differ from geopolitical ones, although most ornithological sources focus more on the Western Palearctic than Europe per se (starting already in 1871, interestingly, with A History of the Birds of Europe). Apart from the eBird definition above, I could only find the European Red List of the Birds from BirdLife International, which is politically based and so includes the Azores, Madeira and the Canary Islands.

As an alternative to presenting a uniform definition, one could also mark those birds only occurring on the Macaronesian islands in the list somehow.

MathEvo (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@MathEvo: I just happened across List of birds of Africa and thought that the approach taken there was legitimate, but not what I would choose. Thought you might want to see that as an option. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 00:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SchreiberBike: Good catch. The ABA includes the Canary Islands in the African region (https://www.aba.org/listing-areas-and-regions/), whereas Madeira and the Azores appear to be assigned to the Atlantic/Arctic Ocean Region, rather than Europe or Africa. The African Bird Club includes all of the Macaronesian islands as part of their region (https://www.africanbirdclub.org/countries/). Given these contrasting definitions, I will mark the Macaronesian species with a star in the list and state where they are endemic to in brackets. A similar approach might be needed for the Caucasus, but I'd need to look more closely at which species have been seen where. MathEvo (talk) 08:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]