Talk:Nikolai Gogol

Ukrainian Cossaks?

There are several Cossaks groups who live and lived in present official territory of Ukraine. Article linked with words "Ukrainian Cossaks" leads to Zaporozhian Cossacks article since it is they who are really referred to in article. Present adjective is misleading and unwarranted by facts. Change it to Zaporozhian Cossacks in this article. Link will provide the context in full. Why prejudice the reader by misnaming it? Smells of crude propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:4000:B281:B9DD:48DB:50BF:A506:2 (talk) 03:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

A few questions

Didn't the Ukrainian nationality appear in the mid-nineteenth century in the historical territories of Red Ruthenia controlled by the Austrian Empire in environments associated with the Uniate Church? Didn't the Austrian Germans support the Ukrainian Uniate Church against the Orthodox Ruthenians who sought protection in the Russian Empire? Wasn't it Lviv that was the center of the Ukrainian movement supported by the Austrian Empire. Didn't this movement appear in the Russian Empire only after Gogol's death, in the 1870s, in narrow student circles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 14:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

nuh uh 216.245.77.37 (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

No.

Ukrainians are mentioned by that name in English sources by 1760, and Ukraine by 1651.[1] Obviously the names were already in use in Ukraine.

Muscovy started suppressing Ukrainian language by 1620; see Chronology of Ukrainian language suppression. The Russian empire persecuted the Brotherhood of Saints Cyril and Methodius in 1847 for privately discussing Ukrainian nationality. It banned Ukrainian language in the 1863 Valuev Circular and 1876 Ems Ukaz.

Popular use of Ukraïntsi “Ukrainians” as an ethnonym started in the Russian empire in the nineteenth century by the people that had been officially labelled Malorossy “Little Russians”. In Habsburg lands it was only adopted at the beginning of the twentieth by people that had previously referred to themselves Rusyny or Rusnaky “Ruthenians.”

(When did Russian national identity form?)  —Michael Z. 15:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2023

Change from:

Nikolai Vasilyevich Gogol[a] (1 April [O.S. 20 March] 1809[1] – 4 March [O.S. 21 February] 1852) was a Russian novelist, short story writer, and playwright of Ukrainian origin.

To:

Nikolay Gogol, in full Nikolay Vasilyevich Gogol, (born March 19 [March 31, New Style], 1809, Sorochintsy, near Poltava, Ukraine, Russian Empire [now in Ukraine]—died February 21 [March 4], 1852, Moscow, Russia), Ukrainian-born humorist, dramatist, and novelist whose works, written in Russian, significantly influenced the direction of Russian literature. (Source: Britannica) 150.143.107.171 (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm fairly certain some of the desired changes may breach certain manual of style conventions - I'd have to research it. More importantly, volunteers are going to need more information on your source rather than just stating it's written somewhere in Britannica. —Sirdog (talk) 05:31, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

The above is cribbed directly from the lead of Britannica’s “Nikolay Gogol.” Britannica doesn’t write he was a “Russian” anything since a 2017 update, because the term used in this vague way is misleading. —Michael Z. 19:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

google

is better then wekipida or no 216.245.77.37 (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Minor edit

The first two "the"s in this sentence are unnecessary.

"Tsarist authorities encouraged the Ukrainian intellectuals to sever ties with the Poles, promoting a limited, folkloric Ukrainian particularism as part of the heritage of the Russian empire."

"Tsarist authorities encouraged Ukrainian intellectuals to sever ties with Poles, promoting a limited, folkloric Ukrainian particularism as part of the heritage of the Russian empire." CretaceousFella (talk) 14:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2024

Spelling. Wrong version:

His father wrote poetry in Ukrainian as well as Russian, and was an amateur playwright in his own theatre. As was typical of the left-bank Ukrainian gentry of the early nineteenth century, the family was trinlingual speaking Ukrainian as well as Russian, and using Polish mostly in reading. Mother was calling his son Nikola, which is a mixture of the Russian Nikolai and the Ukrainian Mykola. As a child, Gogol helped stage plays in his uncle's home theater.

Right version:

His father wrote poetry in Ukrainian as well as Russian, and was an amateur playwright in his own theatre. As was typical of the left-bank Ukrainian gentry of the early nineteenth century, the family was trilingual, speaking Ukrainian as well as Russian, and using Polish mostly for reading. Mother was calling his son Nikola, which is a mixture of the Russian Nikolai and the Ukrainian Mykola. As a child, Gogol helped stage plays in his uncle's home theater. 178.41.182.163 (talk) 12:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 18:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2024

Not all the information about the poet is correct. He wrote not only in Russian but Ukrainian language as well 213.124.223.2 (talk) 22:47, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 01:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 April 2024

Change "Nikolai Vasilyevich Gogol" to "Mykola Vasilyevich Gogol" as his birth name. Change "Russian novelist" to "Ukrainian novelist", as he wrote in "surzhyk" or a mix of Ukrainian and Russian, some of his works were about Ukraine, in Ukrainian, and he was Ukrainian himself. He also wanted to return and live in Kyiv, and identified as Ukrainian in several documents, spoke Ukrainian with his family. Several of his works were banned of forced change onto, because they were "Pro-Ukrainian". 217.180.196.166 (talk) 18:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Charliehdb (talk) 10:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian-Ukrainian

Greetings @Mellk, it's not very fair for you to first remove sourced info with the justification "already says origin, don't need more refspam" [2] , and then remove it again with "most of the other sources disagree with you" [3] . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

We already have NINE references for this, so yes, it is not fair that you wish to override them. If you want to change the wording, then you can make your case here (assuming it is a new argument). This has already been discussed to death. Mellk (talk) 18:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I see those references are confirming Bojanowska and Ilchuk 's approach of characterizing Gogol as Russian-Ukrainian. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Including the ones that simply call him a Russian writer? The other ones call him a Russian writer and note his Ukrainian upbringing, which is precisely why currently the lead says he is a Russian writer of Ukrainian origin. Mellk (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian nationalist agenda

I find this Ukrainian nationalist hijacking of the page disgusting. The section on Gogol's identity politics is particularly misleading, quoting biased sources. Gogol lived in a time when most Russian and Ukrainian elites subscribed to the Russian Empire and identified as part of a Russian culture which they saw as encompassing Russia and Ukraine, as well as Belarus. For Gogol, to be Russian and Ukrainian was two sides of the same coin and the same civilization. But Ukrainian nationalists are exploiting western sympathy to sell an nationalist distortion of Gogol's background to sell a certain narrative of who Gogol was. Scarsdale.vibe (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, I made a few edits to improve this section, but have to disagree. This section is well sourced and appropriate. Yes, Gogol is a Russian writer, but with very strong Ukrainian cultural connections, as obvious from his writings. No one is saying otherwise. In fact, in his last years he was pretty much an ardent Russian nationalist, as reflected in the famous Letter to Gogol, which needs to be mentioned on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 02:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

P.S. I also changed the title of the section, but do not insist this is the best solution. Every version is wrong version. Welcome to revert or correct. My very best wishes (talk) 21:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Well that section is primarily based on two 2007 and later books called "Nikolai Gogol: Between Ukrainian and Russian Nationalism" and "Nikolai Gogol: Performing Hybrid Identity" so perhaps we can work from here. At least they are not highlighting "Ukrainian" connections but, the impression I got, equalising both, calling Gogol "Russian-Ukrainian" or "hybrid identity". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to fix anything. I was just passing by. My very best wishes (talk) 03:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

It is interesting to see the Russian government at play even on an open web page. 92.40.213.67 (talk) 19:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

It is interesting to see the Ukrainian government at play even on an open web page. 2001:610:450:A1:0:0:5:69 (talk) 16:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

The grotesque

This comment regards the sentence "Gogol used grotesque, ...".

Grotesque is an adjective, so "Gogol used the grotesque" would be the correct usage (like with the sublime or the picturesque).

For clarity, it might be beneficial to rephrase it: "Gogol used the grotesque in his writings, ..." or "Gogol frequently employed elements of the grotesque,..."

Source: eg. Edwards, Justin & Graulund, Rune. Grotesque, Routledge, 2013, doi.org/10.4324/9780203383438-9 2001:4C4D:1281:C00:A8AA:D41C:290:7C09 (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I made the change you suggested. Let us know if it is not what you had in mind. Thank you!

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024

Change references to nationality from “Russian” to “Ukrainian”. Mykolai Gogol was an ethnically Ukrainian writer, born in Ukraine. He was proud of his Ukrainian heritage as evidenced by his work.

Example: Oscar Wilde was an Irish writer, and is referenced as having an Irish nationality, despite being born in the United Kingdom. He is not a “British” or “English” writer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde 92.40.213.67 (talk) 18:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

We should make an assessment on how Gogol is best to be referred to in Ilchuk' and Bojanowska's works. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. PianoDan (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024 (2)

Division of Literatures, Cultures, and Languages](https://dlcl.stanford.edu/publications/nikolai-gogol-performing-hybrid-identity) [oai_citation:2,Stolen identity: how Nikolai Gogol usurped Mykola Hohol](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/culture/60477/stolen-identity-how-nikolai-gogol-usurped-mykola-hohol).

2. **Influence of Ukrainian Heritage**:

  In his letters, Gogol frequently refers to his Ukrainian upbringing and the influence of Ukrainian folklore and traditions on his works. For instance, in letters to friends and family, he often reminisced about Ukrainian customs and landscapes, which deeply colored his early works such as "Evenings on a Farm Near Dikanka" [oai_citation:3,Nikolai Gogol — Harvard University Press](https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674022911). However, his choice to write in Russian and his desire to achieve literary fame in St. Petersburg reflect his strategic adaptation to the dominant Russian culture [oai_citation:4,Stolen identity: how Nikolai Gogol usurped Mykola Hohol](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/culture/60477/stolen-identity-how-nikolai-gogol-usurped-mykola-hohol).

3. **National Identity and Literary Ambitions**:

  Gogol's letters also reveal his internal conflict regarding his national identity. While he embraced his role as a Russian writer, he did not completely discard his Ukrainian identity. Scholars like Edyta M. Bojanowska in her book "Nikolai Gogol: Between Ukrainian and Russian Nationalism" argue that his works and letters illustrate a blend of Ukrainian and Russian influences, challenging the simplistic categorization of his identity [oai_citation:5,Nikolai Gogol: Performing Hybrid Identity 92.40.213.67 (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 20:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Citation for burning book

" He explained this as a mistake, a practical joke played on him by the Devil.[citation needed]" Oldest source I could find was Page 189 of Mirsky, P. D. S. (n.d.). A History of Russian Literature from the Earliest Times to the Death of Dostoyevsky (1881) - ""He explained this as a mistake-a practical joke played on him by the Devil. It is not clear whether he really meant to do it or not." Ts4ts4ever (talk) 15:05, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

"his paternal ancestor Ostap Hohol [uk]" to Ostal Gogol ?

Ostap Hohol is "Ostap Gogol" even in Ukrainian Wikipedia Остап (Євстафій) Микитович Гоголь (? — 5 січня 1679) — український військовий діяч доби Хмельниччини і Руїни....

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BF_%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C 94.253.2.129 (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian

Regarding this change [4] of section title from National identity to Ukrainian cultural connections. Both Bojanowska Nikolai Gogol - Google Books and Ilchuk Nikolai Gogol - Google Books call Gogol Russian and Ukrainian writer. Ilnytzkyj call him Ukrainian writer Nikolai Gogol: Ukrainian Writer in the Empire - Google Books . Ukrainian encyclopedy ГОГОЛЬ МИКОЛА ВАСИЛЬОВИЧ call him Ukrainian writer. Maybe there is a better section title then "National identity", but moving from wider "National identity" to just "Ukrainian connections" is too much narrow and does not correspond to the message sources are carrying.

It's time also to include these widely accepted assessments of Gogol as both Russian and Ukrainian into the lead. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:29, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

That was my edit, sorry. I thought it was a slightly better wording, but you are very welcome to revert it, rephrase or whatever. My very best wishes (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Reviewing the previous talk page discussions on this subject would be useful preparation for this topic. Much discussion has revolved around whether the statement

"Gogol is X" (where "X" can be "Ukrainian" or "Russian")

means one of, every one of, or some combination of

1. Gogol's nationality was X

2. Gogol's ethnicity was X

3. Gogol's heritage was X

4. Gogol wrote in X

5. Gogol is part of the X literary tradition

6. Gogol self-identified as X

Many people in the talk page discussions don't think the statement means all of 1-6 above, and they think it's misleading to simply state "Gogol is X" without qualifying the statement with some indication of which of 1-6 are true.

Some of the more thoughtful talk page discussions on this issue (with their starting dates) are:

Russian writer? Ukrainian-Russian? Ukr-Born Russian writer? (June 6, 2005)

Gogol's ethnicity (June 11, 2005)

Ukrainian or Russian writer (June 14, 2008)

is "heavily influenced by his Ukrainian upbringing and identity" anachronistic? (April 2, 2009)

Gogol's background (December 21, 2014)

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 06:47, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Many people in the talk page discussions don't think the statement means all of 1-6 above, and they think it's misleading to simply state "Gogol is X" without qualifying the statement with some indication of which of 1-6 are true.
Should we remove "Gogol was a Russian novelist, short story writer, and playwright" then? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:04, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps "Russian-language novelist, short story writer, and playwright", as has been suggested in past discussions of this topic.

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Would "Writing in Russian" be more precise?

And then, perhaps, "with complex Russian-Ukrainian identity and <heritage?> belonging to both Russian and Ukrainian cultures"? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really in a favor of the National identity to Ukrainian cultural connections change; Gogol's identity was far more complicated, his family had for example also Polish roots, and this isn't included at all in this section. Marcelus (talk) 12:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I self-reverted. Welcome to include more info about anything, including Polish roots. Something like Taras Bulba comes to my mind. Was it pro-Polish or strongly anti-Polish? My very best wishes (talk) 03:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Could @Marcelus's concerns be met by transplanting the first paragraph of the "Literary Development" section to become the second paragraph of the "National identity" section? The paragraph doesn't seem to deal with literary development at all but does seem relevant to national identity.

Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 01:08, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

But it's directly linked to his literary developments, as the themes of his works are a direct reflection of his changing identity. Marcelus (talk) 09:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)