Talk:Salsa (food)

'English' versus 'British English'

The article currently states "In English it is pronounced /ˈsɑːlsə/, while in British English it is pronounced as /ˈsælsə/"

Which 'English' is the first mention referring to? This entire sentence seems inconsistent/ignorant of the way the English language is organised. Is it suggesting that ALL other English speakers around the world pronounce it the same way? If so, it should say 'all other English speakers'. Since this is not likely, it should probably say something like:

In American (???) English it is pronounced /ˈsɑːlsə/, while in British English it is pronounced as /ˈsælsə/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.146.6.79 (talk) 13:40, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Spanish article

Why is there no Spanish version of this article? You might think that something like that should have one. How do Spanish-speaking people call it since it just means "sauce" in Spanish?--2001:16B8:2E21:F200:616D:F7FC:331:D33 (talk) 06:59, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

In the Spanish WP, there are articles like es:Salsa_roja_picante_(México), es:Pico de gallo (redirected from es:Salsa mexicana), etc. I suppose there could be an article on salsas mexicanas or salsas crudas mexicanas, but that's up to the editors of the Spanish WP. --Macrakis (talk) 20:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Scope of article

Should this article contain information on Italian salsa, or should the two languages be separated and the title of this article be changed to something such as "Sauce (Hispanic-American sauce)"? Infinite mission (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia article titles are based on the English names of things. This article is not about all things called salsa in Spanish (or for that matter in Italian), because in English, salsa refers specifically to Mexican-style raw sauces used with Mexican and Mexican-American food. --Macrakis (talk) 20:49, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I removed some of the non-essential translations of modern dishes, but you can't just delete the entire history of salsa from the article. It's the same in English or Spanish (next time check OED for this before you remove content from the article). The article you are thinking of is pico de gallo, we already have a separate article for that. Spudlace (talk) 18:42, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Obviously the modern English word salsa meaning "the stuff you put on chips and tacos" comes from the Spanish word salsa, which means sauce in general. But the English word salsa does not mean sauce in general, or the sauce in a stew.

The OED article on salsa was last updated in 1982, and talks about "A variety of sauce served with meat." Interestingly, only the oldest quotation they give (from 1846) supports the idea that it's a sauce served with meat -- actually, it seems to mean the liquid part of a stew. The term salsa is also italicized in the quote, indicating that it's not naturalized in English. The 1935 quotation talks about salsa pura (not italicized), but the context doesn't tell us what that means, and I can't find any Spanish-language sources that talk about it. On the other hand, I see that there was a commercial salsa (apparently the Mexican kind) called Salsa Pura. The 1973 quotation mentions salsa verde, which in context pretty clearly means the Italian salsa verde, which is a cold, raw sauce, which is in fact served with meat; but there is no reason to believe that in English, salsa means Italian salsa verde. Finally, the 1978 quotation from Tucson Magazine is almost certainly referring to the Mexican-style sauce.

The Merriam-Webster is more up to date, and only gives two definitions for salsa, "a usually spicy sauce of chopped tomatoes, onions, and peppers that is commonly served with Mexican food", and "popular music of Latin American origin that has absorbed characteristics of rhythm and blues, jazz, and rock" (covered in our article salsa music).

I am not sure what you mean by "you can't just delete the entire history of salsa from the article. It's the same in English or Spanish (next time check OED for this before you remove content from the article)." Please remember that this is the English wikipedia, and the Spanish meaning of salsa is not relevant to the article title (see WP:TITLE).

I don't see any evidence that "salsa" has been widely used in English in the past to mean "a reduced cooking sauce served with meat" or a Catalan base for thick stews. (The source for the Catalan sense is in Spanish.)

As for pico de gallo, that is one particular salsa in the modern sense. As the article itself shows, there are many others, including salsa roja, salsa crude, salsa verde, etc. --Macrakis (talk) 19:42, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

OED is not out of date and there are many other reliable sources. Spudlace (talk) 19:50, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The OED article on "salsa" was last updated in 1982, and does not reflect contemporary usage. Kindly supply the reliable, recent, English-language sources which show that salsa, as a naturalized English word (not a quotation of Spanish usage) normally means "a reduced cooking sauce served with meat" (i.e., the liquid part of a stew).

If you are correct that salsa in English normally means the liquid part of a stew, then you should remove all of the article starting with "Cultural varieties". Then, of course, we'd need another article to cover the current sense of salsa as the sauces (usually raw) served with Mexican food and with tortilla chips. What would you propose to call that? Pico de gallo is only one such sauce. --Macrakis (talk) 20:05, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Salsas are not usually raw, salsa verde is not raw, etc. The sources are all cited in the article. I will make some changes to the lede momentarily to address this. Spudlace (talk) 20:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

You're right, some things called "salsa" are not raw -- notably most of the prepared salsas in jars. But the definition of salsa as "a reduced cooking sauce served with meat" is as far as I can tell obsolete in English and was never very common. I still see no evidence in the article that reduced cooking sauce is normally called salsa in English. --Macrakis (talk) 20:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

You make a good point and I think we have to cover both definitions in the lead sentence, so I've added it. It's an encyclopedia article and erasing peer-reviewed journals is not the right way to fix something like this. Let me know if you see any other problems! Spudlace (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think we're converging. Your sources clearly document the Spanish word salsa, meaning the broth or liquid of a stew, but none of them show this as a modern English meaning. Of course scholarly articles about the Spanish reality will use the Spanish term, but that does not demonstrate that it's a common meaning in English. Even if it were, there's a good case to be made that there should be two different articles for the two different meanings. WP is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary, so even if the two meanings use the same name, they should be two articles. That said, I do not think you've made the case that the "stew broth" sense is used in English at all. A single citation from the OED in 1846, in a Spanish context, doesn't help.

If you continue to insist on this peculiar definition, I'm afraid I'll need to invoke Wikipedia:Dispute resolution procedures. --Macrakis (talk) 20:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think this needs dispute resolution. This is not a single citation to OED. There are 13 reliable sources cited in the article that disagree with the arguments you have made on this talk page. Spudlace (talk) 21:11, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

This article should primarily be about the salsa most english speakers are familiar with, that is the one that they buy at the grocery store next to the tortilla chips. Spudlace, the more traditional/spanish usage seems to be a notable topic as well, but it is not the topic that this article should be about. Maybe you should start a new article on it (Sauces in Spanish cuisine is available) rather than taking over this one? - MrOllie (talk) 21:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

This article is salsa (sauce). If it's decided we need an article devoted to the dip (and we may need a separate article based on the souces I've seen), may I suggest salsa (dip)? I can write the article. Spudlace (talk) 21:42, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

You still have not shown that salsa is used in modern English to mean the liquid part of stew. And if we were to have an article about it, it should surely be called by an English name, not a Spanish one. Pretty much every cuisine in Europe (and beyond) makes stew, although I don't know if there's much to say about the liquid part that wouldn't better be said in the stew article. --Macrakis (talk) 21:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Where in the article do you see that? I don't think it's "the liquid part of stew" and that isn't in the article as far as I know. Spudlace (talk) 21:54, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

From your own sources:

OED 1846 quote:"What sort of a stew is it? Let me smell and taste the salsa." If you read the surrounding text, you'll see that the author first smells and tastes the stew's juices (the salsa, italicized because it is a foreign word) and then he takes his fork and sees that the meat is tender.

Your second reference is in Spanish and in Catalan, so doesn't give any evidence about the meaning of the English word 'salsa'. But your own description of it is "the cooking base of thick potaje stews", which in this case consists of garlic, almonds, spices, rosewater and broth (if I got the Catalan right).

All your other references are in Spanish, as well, giving no evidence about the English meaning.

In any case, combining the sense of cooking sauce with that of dip or condiment is problematic. In Greek, we'd say τάκανες σάλτσα... (lit. you made sauce out of it, i.e., a mess). --Macrakis (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I see the line you are talking about and I've removed it. Spudlace (talk) 22:46, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Your choice of which things that are called salsa in Spanish to include in this article seems completely arbitrary. After all, salsa simply means "sauce", and includes salsa mahonesa (mayonnaise), salsa Worcestershire, and even salsa ketchup. I hope you agree that that would be absurd -- those all belong in the sauce article, regardless of their name in Spanish -- or perhaps the Catalan and Spanish cuisine articles.

So why should salsa de pagó, salsa mirraust, etc. be covered in an article called "salsa", and not in the main sauce article or the appropriate cuisine articles? --Macrakis (talk) 23:00, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Have you read the sources for this article? These are not random Spanish language uses of the word "sauce". Your arguments are not adding up and they are not going to add up because you are choosing to disregard reliable sources. This is taken from reliable sources like Gastronomica and Oxford Symposium (which don't discuss salsa Worcestershire) because they are considered by scholars to be the origin of the modern dishes this article is discussing. If there is a debate about this, like Pre-discovery salsa in the New World, it can be added with needed citations. The article as it is written reflects the current view of every reliable source I have seen, without exception. Maybe dispute resolution will help, because I don't seem to be getting through to you. Spudlace (talk) 23:10, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I've made another attempt to improve the lede based on your comments. If you are still unhappy then I think the next step is dispute resolution. Spudlace (talk) 23:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

And I don't seem to be getting through to you!

The issue isn't whether what you're writing is true or interesting or well researched; it's whether it belongs in this article and what exactly the central topic of that article is. I also see that you have now radically changed your definition from "a reduced cooking sauce served with meat" to "an ingredient [???] that is used as a dressing or accompaniment for many dishes, and is prepared with a combination of vegetables, oil, wine, vinegar and stock". So now I'm completely lost as to your intent.

More minor point: many of your citations don't include page numbers, which makes them very difficult to use. --Macrakis (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Spudlace: I have requested a third opinion on the Third Opinion page. --Macrakis (talk) 14:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

That's ok, but I don't agree with your statement of what the dispute here is about. OED is a reliable source and shouldn't be removed from the article. Spudlace (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The OED is certainly a reliable source, but it is not perfect. In this particular case, their 1846 citation supports the idea that salsa (italicized as a foreign word) is the liquid part of a stew; their 1935 citation is unclear; their 1973 citation talks specifically of salsa verde (not salsa in general), and their 1978 citation is almost certainly misinterpreting the source. Also, this entry in the OED dates from 1982, before the word salsa became widely popular in the meaning of "the Mexican sauce used on tacos and as a dip for tortilla chips". --Macrakis (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate your input and I think I understand your argument a little better now. If a sauce has become widely established in English language as sauce like your example of "Worcestershire sauce" then we would remove it. I've made one such removal per this discussion for Romesco sauce. In other cases, reliable sources have chosen to maintain use of the word salsa because it is culturally significant as in the case of the Judeo-Spanish language communities retained the original names of foods after the exile from Spain. Spudlace (talk) 19:33, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

No, I still think we haven't reached a meeting of the minds. From your edits on this and other articles (e.g., salsa verde), I think I see where the disconnect is.

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. It is not organized around words, but around concepts or topics. One topic, one article. For example, "the family of Mexican sauces used on tacos and as a dip for tortilla chips" is a topic. Another topic might be, say, "cold, uncooked sauces based mostly on chopped herbs". Yet another might be "a Mexican sauce based on tomatillos and chiles" (which is a subtopic of the first topic). Yet another might be "a family of sauces in Spanish cuisine made with vegetables, oil, wine, vinegar, and stock" (though I'm not convinced that that is in fact a family of sauces in Spanish cuisine).

The names used for things do not determine the organization. The fact that there is an Italian sauce called salsa verde (based on herbs) as well as a Mexican sauce called salsa verde (based on tomatillos) does not mean that they should be covered in the same article. Conversely, the fact that a German sauce that is related to the Italian sauce is called Grüne Soße does not mean it belongs in a separate article.

The names of articles are the English name of the topic if it has one. The article on Mexican salsa verde is under that title not because that is the name in Spanish, but because that seems to be the most common name in English. If it's the case that the Mexican salsa verde and the Italian salsa verde are both commonly called by that name in English, that's not a reason to put them in the same article -- they ought to be under salsa verde (Mexico) and salsa verde (Italy). But in fact the Italian name is not that common, and anyway fits into a larger category of green sauces.

Conversely, the general topic of sauces is covered in the article sauce, whether they're from Spanish cuisine and called salsa in Spanish or from Chinese cuisine and called 醬 or 醬油 or whatever. (That said, the current Sauce#Latin and Spanish_American section is a bit of a mess.)

Well, enough for now. I think the above is a correct summary of WP policy. Do you agree? --Macrakis (talk) 20:08, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Please believe that I welcome your input and contributions. I feel we have improved the article by our work together in this discussion and at salsa verde, but I hope you can understand that we can not delete OED as a source for dispute about the English language. I think that you will not agree unless the article is limited to the post-1980s American English definition, but I will have ask you to Please reconsider this is not in the best interest of the article. Your participation in this article has helped me to see things in a different way and I would like it if we can work together again. Spudlace (talk) 00:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

There are two problems with your argument: first of all, this article is not about the word "salsa", but about some topic which is called "salsa" (in English). Secondly, sources are sources, not gospel truth. In this particular case, we have two normally reliable sources which disagree: the OED definition 1 isn't mentioned in M-W, and vice versa. This is a good indication that there's an issue we need to resolve in some other way. That said, more specialized sources, like the Oxford Companion to Food are often better sources for food-related issues. As it happens, the OCF doesn't have a headword 'salsa' at all (which is interesting in itself), though it mentions the use of salsas (rojas and verdes) for tacos under tortilla.

The Oxford Companion to American Food and Drink, on the other hand, does have a headword salsa (p. 517), and covers only the Mexican-style condiment. The second paragraph of that article talks about the origins of that word in the Spanish word salsa, which of course covers all sorts of sauces, smooth and chunky, raw and cooked, hot and cold (unlike this salsa article).

I love the OED and have used it heavily in editing Wikipedia, but (a) it's not normally useful to quote it in the lead (as opposed to in the etymology section); (b) the fact that it's the OED belongs in the footnote, not the running text; (c) when the OED makes a mistake or is out of date, we have no obligation to follow it. --Macrakis (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I have been thinking about it and I am starting to agree that there are two articles here. However, my problem is that I can not change a 13th-century food term described as salsa by many reliable sources to sauce so it is pointless to keep asking me to do this because the answer will be no, and please to not ask me to make changes against the policies.

Most of the sources used in this article describe the style of salsa you are talking about as a dip or condiment. I offer to split this article to salsa (condiment). Spudlace (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Salsa (condiment) makes sense to me for the thing that is usually called salsa in English, namely the Mexican family of sauces.

On the other hand, I am not sure what the other article would be about, or what it should be called. There are, as you point out, many sauces in Spanish and Catalan cuisine (medieval and otherwise), and they are very variable. Is the topic "sauces in Iberian cuisine"? Maybe it would be better to add a section to the Sauce article on Spanish and Catalan sauces, and also a section on sauces in the Spanish cuisine article. Those sections would cover romesco, allioli, etc. (leaving the detail to the main article, of course) as well as the various sauces you have documented in Salsa (sauce)#History. If those get too big, then they can be split off into a Template:Main article.

As for the title of that article, it pretty clearly should not be called anything with salsa in the name, since that is not the English name of Iberian sauces (not to mention that salsa is also a perfectly good Italian word).

I am not sure what policy you think requires using the title "salsa" for an article about a topic which is called salsa in Spanish (and usually used in italics in English to denote a non-assimilated word). After all, there are usually many possible titles for articles. --Macrakis (talk) 15:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

No it's not sauces in Iberian cuisine because there is too much overlap with other salsas. The new article will have to have salsa in the title but I am not sure what it will be yet but I don't want to work on this article right now. I'm just going to revert back to the previous version before I started editing, but with the unsourced content removed. Does that work? Spudlace (talk) 15:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll be interested to see how you define the topic. --Macrakis (talk) 16:00, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

When I started editing this article I thought the connection would be clearer between the salsas dishes as it is for some other types of foods in Mexico, but during our discussion I became convinced that salsa was a loan-term used for a dish that already existed in Aztec culture. In this situation, I believe it is an important point that they are separate articles and I appreciate that you have brought this to my attention. At the same time I believe we don't erase the term salsa from the communities that continue to use it (like Greek Jews), I think we are moving towards separate articles. That should carry us some way towards resolution. Unfortunately, for this article there is not a good version we can go back to. If it were possible, I would have agreed to it already. The earlier version of the article states that salsa is "raw" and then goes on to describe how it is cooked (to avoid E.Coli) in the text. Any suggestions? Spudlace (talk) 16:10, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the earlier version is imperfect in many ways, but it's fine as a starting point. Here is the relevant page of the Oxford Companion to American Food and Drink in case you want some ideas (not that the OCAFD is perfect, either).

I also agree that the local name for things should be mentioned in articles, but that doesn't mean it has to be in the title. After all, many things have different names in different contexts. See the doughnut article for example -- some variants have their own articles, some are covered only in the general article. I tend to find that too many food-related articles are split up by national lines, when they don't need to be -- the commonalities are far greater than the differences in national variants. --Macrakis (talk) 16:49, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Sources don't have to be perfect but it's better than just making stuff up. I've seen articles that were split up for solid reasons and others that were done poorly. If it was a good idea, it would be in published. Aachener Printen are just gingerbread cookies but they are made according to certain requirements and ingredients so we have them a separate article. But it's not for this article. Did you rewrite the first sentence when you reverted my additions? Spudlace (talk) 17:36, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

As you can see in the edit history, I last edited this article on July 6, which is the version we should to revert to. Medieval Catalan and Spanish sauces don't belong here. Salsa golf doesn't belong here. The material on Jewish cuisine doesn't belong here. Salsa blanco doesn't belong here. As I said above, WP is not a dictionary, and not organized by words. The only things all those items have in common is that they are sauces, so they belong in the sauce article. The fact that the Spanish word for sauce is salsa is irrelevant -- we don't put information about French bread under pain, either. --Macrakis (talk) 18:57, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to copy the Pico de gallo article here because we don't need two articles about the same thing. Spudlace (talk) 19:55, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

We may want to merge in pico de gallo here -- what Diana Kennedy calls salsa mexicana cruda in her classic Cuisines of Mexico-- but this should be the umbrella article for all the different kinds of table sauces (as opposed to cooking sauces) typically served on Mexican tables and in Mexican-American restaurants:

"A dish of sauce or relish is as indispensable to the Mexican table as our salt, pepper, and mustard..."

--Macrakis (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• Diana Kennedy is a fab source and we can limit the scope to Mexican cuisine, but the article title should be Salsa (Mexican cuisine). The article I started editing was "Salsa is the Spanish word for sauce" and included hundreds of salsas in the broader Hispanophone world. Then you wanted to remove content I added that was well within the scope of the article, or so I thought. When reverting my edits you also redefined the scope without indicating that you had changed it. I wish that you had not done that. The association of salsa with Mexican cuisine is huge in reliable sources and it is possible to limit the article, but the title and scope must be clear to our fellow editors and readers. I want to do what is in the best interests of the article, not to force my own views in but I think I am getting in the way of your productive work and it's not what I enjoy. I really have to log off now, I have a lot of family obligations (more than usual during the pandemic). Spudlace (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I reverted your edits exactly once, and after that discussed here on Talk, while you continued to edit. I agree with you completely that "Salsa is the Spanish word for sauce" is not appropriate in the lead, and in fact my version of the lead (the one you reverted en bloc) started "Salsa, in English, is a variety of raw sauces used in Mexican, Mexican-American, Central American and South American cuisine." (It turns out I was wrong about the raw part, and I left in the Central and South American parts, which are probably wrong, too.)

I don't believe I ever "redefined the scope". I tried to focus on the core content of the existing article, which was admittedly a bit of a mess. --Macrakis (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I came here via WP:3O, but there are more than 2 editors discussing here, so it's not really an appropriate third opinion request. But I'll give an opinion anyway, which is that the truth seems to lie somewhere between. Salsas come in many varieties, and are used in cooking, not just as table condiments and for dipping; not especially for tacos, not especially pico de gallo, which is a particular uncooked (fresca) salsa. Keep in mind that a large part of the US is much more deeply influenced by Latin American culture and cuisine than Cambridge, Mass, is. On the other hand, I don't think that mentions going back to unrecognizable salsas of Catalonia or Italy are very relevant here. And I see no good reason not to leave a separate article on pico de gallo, a very distinctive salsa with a name worth discussing. And salsa picante, or "hot sauce", is for the really spicy ones, often in skinny bottles like Louisiana's Tabasco sauce or Thailand's Sriracha, but more Latin in origin, like Cholula or Tapatio or many more; even a spicy pico would not be called salsa picante, I think (and according to this article, a salsa picante is prepared by cooking the ingredients). Also, I generally agree that we should be using mostly modern English-language sources, and that the OED is not very helpful for such things as this, though they are great on relatively archaic usages. Dicklyon (talk) 23:22, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey Dickly(on) (and any other editors wandering in), there is consensus between me and Macrakis for the current version. Objections to current version should be directed to Macrakis. This was the version he proposed and I've already agreed to it - so he is the one you will have to convince to make changes. I'm afraid I won't be much help - I don't look forward to reopening a settled dispute so soon!

As for OED, I just read our article on OED and I see that it does have a historical bent. That explains some other weird definitions I've come across recently like relish. I'll certainly keep this mind! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.Spudlace (talk) 02:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I've been called a lot of things, but not Dickly as far as I can recall. Anyway, you're welcome on the opinions, and maybe they'll help someone make improvements. Or not. Dicklyon (talk) 02:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Gah! I am so sorry, what an embarrassing typo! I've fixed it but I added parentheses around the addition to make it clear. Spudlace (talk) 03:34, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Moving forward

These are some options:

1. It has been argued forcefully on this talk page that the meaning of salsa in English is usually for salsa Picante. I don't dispute it and reliable sources confirm it. Salsa verde is usually called salsa verde, salsa golf, etc. There is no reliable source connecting these salsas into one single article. Some have entered the English language as salsas (salsa golf) others are called Romesco sauce, etc.
2. We should redirect salsa (sauce) to salsa Picante to abide the English language meaning (per forceful arguments made above by user Macrakis
3. Mr. Ollie has argued this article should only cover the jarred "salsa" used as dip for tortilla chips (what most Americans mean when they say Salsa with no qualifiers).
4. Second part of the proposed solution would be to create this at salsa (dip)
5. The leftover content would be merged into relevant articles.

If this is ok for others here we can move forward.

Spudlace (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME this should not be moved to Salsa Picante - it should remain where it is (once it has been reverted back to the former coverage of the topic, that is). - MrOllie (talk) 18:32, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, can we redirect Salsa Picante here? I've restored the previous version but have removed the unsourced content and the content that is out of scope/COMMONNAME, based on this discussion. It's a bad decision to have two articles about the same thing. Spudlace (talk) 20:07, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Salsa picante currently redirects to Pico de gallo which also seems to be a valid target. Salsa Picante (note caps) is about an album and shouldn't be touched. The Pico de gallo article has been around a long time, it would be prudent to start a merge discussion rather than redirecting that one unilaterally. - MrOllie (talk) 20:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I think we've reached consensus to adopt your proposal stated above "This article should primarily be about the salsa most english speakers are familiar with, that is the one that they buy at the grocery store next to the tortilla chips." Spudlace (talk) 20:22, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes. It should not include only the commercial red version in a jar, but all the other sauces (raw or cooked) that are typically served with tortilla chips, tacos, etc. in restaurants or homes. Of course, there should be cross-references to any varieties that have their own articles, like salsa verde. --Macrakis (talk) 20:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

You just told me you wanted to remove all of that stuff like salsa golf. I have to log off for now, but the scope of the article was narrowed to tomato-based sauces (the commonname) by YOUR request. Maybe figure out what you want before creating a big dispute? When I copied the article to the new one we agreed to it had a new talk page so I am no longer watching this one. Spudlace (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, salsa golf is not in the family of "Mexican sauces served at table and usually used on tacos, etc., and in the US associated with tortilla chips." At least around here (Cambridge, Mass.), taquerias offer several different salsas, not just the tomato-based one. Heck, even Wal-Mart sells salsa verde. But it is certainly true, as earlier versions of the article made clear, that the most common one is the tomato-based one. --Macrakis (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Having just returned from a Mexican restaurant - where, incidentally, all dips (not only Pico de gallo) were referred to as salsas - I stopped by this page. I'm surprised at how long this debate has gone on for and hasn't actually moved forward, despite the section heading. I'm a novice editor, so take this for what it's worth. There are a few issues, IMHO:

1. The History section says "fans do not consider jarred products to be real salsa cruda", although this name wasn't mentioned before. It should then say "the name it is known by in Mexico" or something along the lines. Alternatively, the lead could state that what is commonly known as salsa outside Mexico, is known in Mexico as pico de gallo or salsa cruda. The lead does (helpfully) state that salsa means any kind of sauce in Spanish, but it's not clear what THESE Mexican table sauces are.
2. The dollar value of salsa sales is mentioned twice (exactly the same wording) in History and Types.
3. As mentioned above, the Syrian Jewish kibbeh reference doesn't belong in the lead and should be moved to Types.

I'm afraid to make any edits myself considering the hot debate above. Cheers guys. Leoseliv (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The current article emphasizes too heavily pico de gallo. This article should have been more like the kebab article including all culturally relevant salsas (like sofrito). We wouldn't merge kebabs to grilled meats because it's not done that way by reliable sources. The recognition of cultural spheres in the broad sense is of encyclopedic significance and we should not make big change what reliable sources have done. It's not equivalent to claims of ancient national origins that are mostly legendary unverifiable claims to unique possession of the common cultural exchanges and domains of human history. (After much debate we agreed to split the American-Mexican style of restaurant table sauce as the common meaning of the term in English. I'm not sure that it was the best outcome for the article.) Spudlace (talk) 04:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Spudlace I understand that the way the article has turned out is not to everyone's liking. But taking it as it is at the moment, it can still be improved. Yes, it is too focused on one kind of salsa because it's been decided in the discussion above to abide by the English language meaning, and this should be made clear in the article - that following the English terminology we focus on one type but acknowledge that there are many. My suggestions above which are copy-, rather than content-, edits are still relevant. Please let me know if I can have a go at it or you would like to do it. Leoseliv (talk) 12:19, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Go for it. What's been rejected is the broad use of the term salsa for sauces. My main objection was that where its culturally relevant the terminology salsa has been preserved by the communities that use it (Sephardic Jews as a sourced example) and reliable sources. There is overlap between green sauce and salsa verde chimchurri and several reliable sources describe the use of red salsas as cooking sauces, not only table sauces. The decision to focus this article on table sauces served at Mexican American restaurants was a poor one, and contrary to reliable sources, but I got tired of arguing about it. Spudlace (talk) 20:54, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Another note on this that is still unresolved is the article name. It should not be disambiguated to "Salsa (sauce)" when it's insufficient for editors and readers to know what the article is about based on the title. I wasn't happy to be told I would have to remove several hours of work from the article because it was not about "Salsa (sauce)" but only about "Salsa (Mexican American cuisine)". Spudlace (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Cut and paste page move

I just reverted a cut and paste move of this article - even if we should retitle this page (which does not appear to have consensus behind it), the move should be done via the software to preserve the article history. To gauge consensus for a possible move, see WP:RM#CM - MrOllie (talk) 20:48, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

See also

@Spudlace:, I question the value of Sofrito, Matbukha, and Galayet bandora in the "see also" section. Sofrito is a sauce base for other dishes (not generally served on its own), and matbukha and galayet bandora are stand-alone dishes, not sauces, condiments, or dips. Are we going to include all tomato-based sauces in that section (there are a lot of them), even if they're not used as condiments or dips, and even though not all salsa (in the North American sense) is tomato-based? Still, I think it makes sense to add Category:Tomato sauces since many of them are (which I've done). --Macrakis (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2020 (UTC)